"identifies as" language needs to die.
people are gay, or are nonbinary, or are whatever, they don't "identify as" whatever.
@wenom I identify as a menace tbh
@dragon lmao same tbh
@wenom identify as is such boomer vocab
@132ikl honestly, yeah
@wenom is this going to be the year "identify as" shitposting becomes a leftist thing
im all for it tbh
@wenom I *am* a transgender, demigender, nonbinary queer lesbian, I *identify* as a bitch
@emberr Hell yeah!!!!!
@wenom im lesbian and i only identify as a fukken idiot
@wenom all of this can basically be traced back to Riki Anne Wilchins’ 1998 book, Read My Lips, where the term “trans-identified” was introduced for the first time, as was the “identified” structure in the english language to describe GSMs*
* gender & sexuality minorities
@patience that's sincerely really interesting, worrisome that nothing has changed in 21 years, but things can change again
@wenom it’s more that early use (i’m guilty here) was a way of taking agency over describing oneself on their own terms, but reactionaries found the linguistic loophole in that and did they *ever* run with it — leaving us with the state of shit now
@patience that all makes sense, it sucks how its been co-opted
i also think its interesting how language evolves and how something that may have once been empowering for one generation may become hurtful to the ones after
@wenom Same for "preferred" pronouns
@witchfynder_finder hate that one so much, i saw a really fun combo where someone said "[name] identifies as they/them" & i just... what does it mean??? what does it all mean???
@wenom Oh? My GOD?????
@wenom That's just
THat's a whole new level of missing the point
@wenom It's certainly strange that no-one ever seems to uses the phrase "identifies as" when talking about, say, cis people.
@lilly honestly, might start doing this, and see what happens
@lilly @wenom Not an expert but wasn't that part of the reason for the cis identifier. Previously people would say they were "normal". Or they would claim they didn't use any of the new terms. It was to ask people to think about sex gender orientation as like the three knobs you used to have on a stereo and say where would you put yourself if you could move them a little.
@wenom i recently learned that the terms “gender identity” “gender role” and “sexual orientation” were all invented by evil piece of shit John Money (cw pedophilia if you look him up)
@wenom The language is changing and has changed over the past 60 years. Merriam Webster in the 60s defined Gender as the feminist term for sex. Nonbinary is a neologism. So people have to define what they mean by it. Then some people may prefer to identify with that description. And some may feel these are all constructs so they cannot be imposed upon anyone. I am sure there is a discussion to be had. But as people point out for boomers the words and constructs are new. What happens when the
@wenom When the world changes for millenials. When they brought in decimalization of the currency in the UK I recall one opinion being that they should have waited for all the old people to die first because it was too confusing for them. Language grows and changes in fashion. I hope human dignity inclusivism prosper and bigotry and ignorance decrease if you accept those words as words.
@DesCoutinho a lot of terms are neologism, but they're just new words for things that have always existed. being trans and being nonbinary has always existed. no one has an excuse for not understanding these terms
it's true that some generations have been more violently oppressive of queer people, but they still have to learn their shit just like everyone else (even if they've been putting it off). not every boomer is a transphobe, but the transphobes have made it harder for everyone
@red But if there no were words to describe a concept did it not mean also that it would make it very difficult to talk about it? Not trying to get all academically linguistic about this. But i remember reading a short article by Umberto Eco When is a mouse a rat. Part of it was about the meaning of colours. How some groups on the planet have no words to describe some colours and what that meant. does it mean they don't see the colour for them it doesnt exist. Or does it mean its not important
@DesCoutinho if i was born when my grandparents were born i would have been called a retard and a faggot. it’s not that people with adhd and nonbinary people didn’t exist back then, it’s just that that generation generally decided to treat them as defective, lock them up, and shun them from any chance of having a life. anyone of that age who STILL refuses to get with the program can fall down a flight of stairs for all i fucking care
@red Not sure how old your grandparents are but you would probably been put either in prison or an asylum. That's how they got Roger Casement btw. I don't know if you have been following BLM in Belgium but the case against King Leopold was finalized by a two year report from that man. He was hanged eventually but the way they destroyed public support for that great hearted man was by publishing that he was homosexual. Not sure if this conversation is going to be more productive.
@red On your second point. Yes we all have to learn to be more inclusive less nasty to one another. And structural societal familial beliefs have to be let go off. For me going to university helped. I was brought up very Catholic. But now I wouldn't even use the term lapsed. It's more embarrassed but embarrassed doesn't quite cut it for being brought up caflick. There's also a geographical difference at play. In India no one talks of boomers not sure if it would mean anything. It's more do you
@red In India it's more about are you with the religious fascists and I understand their fears. Not sure what the alternative is here mind. If I press people they don't like foreign ideas, foreign culture, the foreign concept of individual human rights. You'd have special treatment if you visited india because you would be considered white. But sexual minorities are just one of the groups the hindi speaking hindu religous nuts have got it in for. You just take a ticket and join the Q.
@DesCoutinho if anyone in india tries to peddle the myth that being trans or nonbinary is a “foreign” concept i guarantee you it will be trivially easy to shove that bullshit right back in their faces. i am not an expert at third gender traditions of that particular region of the world, but i’m pretty sure i’ve heard people talk about them before
@red Your white privilege will take you only so far. Thing about religious fascists it really isn't going to help you if you have facts evidence reason and a cogently presented argument. I stay here on British papers I still did 77 days in prison. Its just how courtship plays out when you is a foreigner trying to marry someone in an intercaste different tribe different religion. You may understand how things work in the West. But this is India. Think middle ages but without the compassion.
@DesCoutinho oh yeah i don’t have specific plans to travel there myself. but one thing that tends to happen (i assume everywhere) with reactionaries is, they’ll brand things like being trans and nonbinary as “foreign” concepts and in doing so contribute to the erasure and oppression of domestic people who are those things, and who have been those things in those regions of the world since before the concept of countries even existed
@red I don't fully understand why fascists do this. Historians argue that the laws condemning sexual minorities were passed by the British foreign rulers and Empress Victoria. The reason lesbianism was never outlawed again was the belief that Queen Victoria would not give royal assent to that because someone would have to explain to her what a Lesbian was. She wasn't all that educated most UK sovereigns weren't. There's a great deal of misogyny here as well. They also treat children in ways that
@red Would probably shock you. But yes the way anything is attacked in India these days are to suggest that it is a form of western decadence. They also something against university education here. So one of the Delhi Colleges is accused of spreading western mores. I think it's got something to do with societal change. Wealth used to be about owning land and therefore owning people. But as wealth can also come thru other means. The British gave jobs to dalits. Then they were able to claim
@red In general terms this is like Amurka before the freeing of the slaves or Russia in the time of the Serfs. Some think that the shallow democratic institutions will bring change. It seems to me more likely just looking at ancient history that a perfect storm of events. The plague, war with china, economic depression, the abject disgusting way the poor and low caste blacks are treated here will lead to the breakdown of the old order. But these things even if sudden take decades if not centuris
@red On your last point mind it's very eurocentric. The nation state developing with capitalism. Egypt was the first country around four thousand years old pretty much continuous with a few hiccoughs. The idea of India is more complicated. They talk of sanatan dharma here in the way that classicist talk of the polis as uniting the Greek idea. There is something about Indianness though that is real. These people will go to war over borders so its more real for them.
@red I assume you are from Amurka but I never asked. That Mr Trump. He makes many a religious fascist look better in comparison. If you gave me decent odds I'd put real money on his being reelected mind.
@wenom "Grace identifies as a woman"
wow, thanks, you used more words just to imply that I'm not a "real" woman. great allyship, bud
@wenom “preferred pronouns” are frustrating in the same way to me
I just use “pronouns” (or “correct pronouns” if I want to add that edge)
@wenom *nods* I AM a wolf. *bares teeth*
We do remember some tumblr post that was smth like "funny how cis people have genders and we have gender identities. Cis ppl get pronouns while we get preferred pronouns"
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